Dinky Toys

The Dinky Toys & Dinky Supertoys Foden lorry. 1947 – 1964.

Dear collector, if you are choosing to invest in Dinky Toys, and so choose to invest especially in the Foden and Guy commercial range of models, then we strongly urge you to read the following information of the History of the Foden and Guy models. Then we also urge you to carefully read the articles and the Information updates on pages three and four as this will be invaluble to you.

We had been trading in DINKY TOYS for some twenty five years plus, and as we specialised in the Foden and Guy commercial models, we decided to look into the history of the colours made as there is an increasing amount of non original factory released colours on the market, and second to that, there are many, many models being sold on the wrong style boxes by dealers and auctions alike in which they are not being honest with their descriptions. Although when a dealer, or an auction house is selling a model on a wrong box, it will usually be described as a transition model and box so as to sell it to you. (Transition models and boxes do occur but only as a continuum, not, for example, a Foden 1st type model from 1948 [in which it would have no tank slots and a small unpainted tow hook] sitting with a blue paper box/orange & white label from 1950. Please refer to the History for the correct model & box issues). So dont be fooled by this transition model & box or the so called provenence history that again some dealers and auction houses use. We spent about ten years over the course of our collecting/trading years to look into the history of those models using original archive material, and the following colours/box styles in the History section are from those findings and are definitive.

Because the Fodens and Guy lorries use a nut and bolt to secure the back to the cab & chassis, it opens the way to a never ending source of new colours, switching the back on one vehicle and placing it onto the cab & chassis of another. Most collectors know that this goes on and steer clear of those non original factory release colours. But, there are collectors who are naive about what colours are the real deal and which are not. Many collectors seem to be guided by the collectors price guide book and the auction houses, and if they have a particular colour in their catalogue, it must therefore be correct! Some colours that are made up use rare components in the first place, but once switched about, you dont tend to ask the question how the, now new colour, came about.

Two colour Fodens that are easily made up and continuously made up are the, all Orange tailboard with Mid Green wheels and the all Yellow tailboard with Mid Green wheels. The all Orange tailboard always attract a price premium as a rare or even a very rare colour, but it is nothing more than, a number 902 in Orange and Mid Green flat bed and mid green wheels [use the Orange cab and chassis] and a number 903 in Violet Blue and Orange tailboard [use the Orange tailboard]. *See pictures below.

The same is said for the all Yellow tailboard It uses the cab and chassis from the number 902 in Yellow cab and chassis and Mid Green flat bed and Mid Green wheels, and the tailboard from the number 903 in Dark Blue and Yellow tailboard. These two models are rare colours in their own right, and so, in swapping these colours you get another so called rare colour. Now as the Dark Blue and Yellow tailboard uses the adhesive Yellow colour spot on the end of the box lid, you will often be misled into thinking it means its for the all Yellow version.

The three classic sale phrases you will hear for these models are usually its a factory mistake! or its a pre production or bought from the original owner who bought it in the 50s! So, no matter whether someone tells you it was bought from Hamleys or from the factory its self, if it can be made up, it is not a rare colour and worth no more than the two normal models sold individually.

Those two colours, along with other certain colours, were never released from the Binns Road factory.

Now second to the above mentioned, the most overly used word in the Dinky vocabulary is rare, or worse, very rare to sell models. (We are now also noticing certain dealers are now using ultra rare as a selling terminology). Dinky Toys in general are not rare, in fact they are in abundance. Only ceratin colours or certain models in exceptional condition could be classed as rare. So when you next see a model listed by a dealer as rare, dont be taken in, or be sold of the idea that you wont be seeing another example for some time to come.

Other colours we have seen that have been made up and sold as rare colours are:

Number 901, Orange and Fawn wagon, Mid Green wheels! This uses the cab and chassis from the number 902 in Orange and Green flat bed and the Fawn wagon from the number 901 Red and Fawn.

Number 901, Duo Green wagon! This uses the cab and chassis from the number 505 chain lorry in Fern Green, or the number 905 in Fern Green [shades can vary from the early number 505 to the later number 905] in which these have Mid Green wheels and the Mid Green wagon [again, shades can vary slightly, so dont think of it as a different colour] comes from the number 934 Leyland Octopus wagon in Yellow and Mid Green. A point of interest: the first examples of the wagon used on the Leyland Octopus, use the same casting as the Foden wagon. The later examples of the Leyland Octopus wagon, that now use a steel rivet, have a casting flaw on the passenger side in the shape of a raised circle 9mm in diameter. *See pictures below to see a couple of examples that were for sale on the internet auction site as very rare colours!

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Number 902, Red & Green, Red wheels! This uses the cab & chassis from the number 501 or the number 901 in Red & Fawn wagon and the flat bed from the number 502 or the number 902 Orange & Green.

Number 503 (second cab), Duo Green tailboard! We have seen examples of this very rare colour made up. But instead of the cab & chassis being Dark Brunswick Green (same in colour as the first cab Foden flat truck/tailboard and the Guy flat truck/tailboard in Duo Green) it used the cab and chassis again from the number 505 chain lorry in Fern Green or the number 905 in Fern Green in which it has Mid Green wheels, and the tailboard from the number 503 first cab Foden in Dark Brunswick Green/Mid Green tailboard. The tailboard itself is the same Mid Green but, the way you can distinguish it from the second cab Foden, is that the first cab Foden casting has no chain post mount cast underside of the tailboard. *See the pictures below of the original number 503 in Duo Green along side the number 505 in Fern Green regarding the two different colours.

Number 501 (first cab) Duo Blue wagon! We have seen mock up versions of this model in which the cab and chassis from the first cab Foden, number 504 fuel tanker in Duo Blue with a Blue side flash, and the wagon from a number 501 second cab, have been used to reproduce this rare model. The genuine first cab in Duo Blue was made for about two months only, and so it was issued initially, with a small unpainted tow hook, then briefly followed by the large unpainted tow hook and NO tank slots in chassis.

A point of interest: There are a few sellers on the online internet auction site that are consistently making up colours and selling them on as rare colours, we have been watching these sellers with interest. One particular seller,pickegirl1982, that was unsuccessful in selling the number 504 first cab Foden Tanker in Duo Blue for 150.00 decided a few months later to make up a number 501 wagon in Duo Blue by using the same cab and chassis, and the Blue wagon he took from a chipped second cab 501 in duo blue. Then putting it with a brown style card box, of which it should have anyway, lists it as a rare colour. He ended up selling the Foden wagon for 516.76. *See pictures below.

Study the cab and chassis and you will see the marks on the each model correspond. This particular seller, of which we know his real name as Gary Whitehouse (he also uses the alias names of Garry Whitehouse and Paula Galloway) from Pickering, North Yorkshire, United Kingdom, also uses the internet profile name of

, has also made up various other so called rare colours, including, another number 501 first type Foden Wagon in Duo Blue, at least five number 504 second type Foden Tankers in Duo Blue and a number 905 second type Foden in Mid Blue & Grey chain lorry to name but a few. The internet profile name of

: this seller is now using the internet profile selling name of

to see more fake models taken from his sales page on the internet auction site.

There are many more, in fact hundreds of non original factory colours that we have seen on the market besides all of the above mentioned. And this is not just restricted to the online internet auctions, it is also prevalent at the toy fair circuit as well. But as the internet auction site keeps continuously changing its layout and the way it shows to the public [which always works in favour of the fraudster due to having private listings, private feedback and now, not being able to see the actual items in which the seller had sold which could have been seen, if the feedback wasnt private, if you clicked on view item] it should be said that its buyer beware when buying.

We would be interested in hearing from collectors who see for sale any swapped colours to which we will then be adding additional information about these sellers as time goes on with photographic evidence of their sales, and this will be shown onpage 3andpage 4in theInformationsection.

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In August1947, the Foden and the Guy Lorry were introduced to the world, and that Foden is now recognised as the first type cab. These first cab Fodens were issued in aplain brown card boxwith ared & white labelon top and a smallred & white labelon the end of the box lid informing of the model inside. A point of interest: the base of the box was purposely designed with no staples to one end as the model was to be put in the box on its side with the roof at the non staple end, therefore no part of the model would touch any staple making way to chipping of the paint. *See pictures below for examples of this. (The same in design as the Guy models in the brown card box).

The casting, for the Flat bed and Flat bed/Tailboard, have no casting support for the chain post underneath as this was not introduced until January 1952.

The very first run of chassis castings have nomould blockto allocate thesmall tow hookas this was not introduced until September 1948. And there are NOtank slotsto allocate the tabs for the Fuel Tank as this was not introduced until October 1948. These first run of Fodens used theHerringbonestyle tyres until the introduction of theround treadstyle tyres, they also used asilver nut & boltfixing to secure the back to the cab & chassis.Please to note: the black nut & bolt was not issued on any first cab Foden.

The boxes were colour coded on the end label and the base of the box denoting what colour model is inside the box. There will either be a small paint stamp on the end label, a coloured roundel measuring 12mm in diameter or a coloured letter, i.e. a Blue B or a Green G or a Red R and so on. The production code stamp, readingM42on the base of the box, was also done in the same colour as the colour code on the end label. *See pictures below for examples of this.

Please to note: the 1947 – 1948 Foden lorries were not issued in the light blue or dark blue paper issue boxes.

The first run of colours consisted of having the chassis painted in a separate colour to the cab and flat bed/wagon. These colours are:

Number 501, brick red brown cab/wagon, black chassis, silver flash to side of cab and brown coloured wheels.

Number 501, light grey cab/wagon, black chassis, red flash to side of cab and red coloured wheels.

Number 501, blue cab/wagon, black chassis, silver flash to side of cab and blue coloured wheels.

Number 501, red cab/wagon, black chassis, silver flash to side of cab and red coloured wheels.

Number 501, dark grey cab/wagon, black chassis, red flash to side of cab and red coloured wheels.

Number 501, dark grey cab/wagon, red chassis, red flash to side of cab and red coloured wheels.*

(*As this colour was one of the final colours produced in the first run of colours, it can be found with the casting block which houses the small tow hook. Very few of these colours were made having the small unpainted tow hook)

Number 502, green cab/flat bed/black chassis, silver flash to side of cab and green coloured wheels.* (*As this colour was one of the final colours produced in the first run of colours, it can be found with the casting block which houses the small tow hook. Very few of these colours were made having the small unpainted tow hook)

Number 502, mid blue cab/flat bed, dark blue chassis, dark blue flash to side of cab and dark blue coloured wheels.

Number 503, red cab/flat bed/tailboard, black chassis, black flash to side of cab and red coloured wheels.* (*As this colour was one of the final colours produced in the first run of colours, it can be found with the casting block which houses the small tow hook. Very few of these colours were made having the small unpainted tow hook)

Number 503, grey cab/flat bed/tailboard, blue chassis, blue flash to side of cab and blue coloured wheels.*

(*As this colour was one of the final colours produced in the first run of colours, it can be found with the casting block which houses the small tow hook. Very few of these colours were made having the small unpainted tow hook)

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In September1948a second colour scheme was introduced. This consisted of having the cab and chassis painted in the same colour and the flat bed/wagon in a different colour. These very first run of colours still used thebrown card boxwith ared & white labelon top and a smallred & white labelon the end of the box lid informing of the model inside. Also in 1948, they had a short run of labels used for the flat bed and wagon lorries in the form of ared & whitecontinuous wrap around style covering both ends of the lid, the same as used on the tanker lorry.

The boxes were colour coded on the end label and the base of the box denoting what colour model is inside the box. There will either be a small paint stamp on the end label, a coloured roundel measuring 12mm in diameter or a coloured letter, i.e. a BlueBor a GreenGor a RedRand so on. The production code stamp on the base of the box was also done in the same colour as the colour code on the end label. Once thelight blue paper style boxeswere introduced, the colour coding was simplified by using an ink stamp, i.e. aBforBlue, or aGfor Green and so on and this was now a standard purple in colour.

Please to note: the dark blue issue paper boxes were not issued until the introduction of the second cab Foden irrespective of whether the label shows a picture of a first cab Foden.

The chassis continued to use themould blockcasting to house thesmall unpainted tow hook, but NO slots for thetank slotsfor the fuel tank as that casting wasnt to appear until one month later, and these selection of colours still used asilver nut & boltfixing to secure the back to the cab & chassis.Please to note: the black nut & bolt was not issued on any first cab Foden. A selection of these colours were produced right up until September 1952 when the second cab Foden was introduced in which they in turn used the same colour schemes.

The early, second run of colours for the first cab Foden consisted of:

Number 501 dark blue cab/chassis, mid blue wagon, mid blue flash to side of cab & mid blue wheels. No tank slots. Small or large unpainted tow hook. This colour was only issued in the brown card box.*

(*This colour was made for two months only. It was issued with an unpainted tow hook andno tank slotsin chassis, but we have seen mock up examples of this model in which the cab and chassis from the fuel tanker have been used to reproduce this rare model. If you have an example with tank slots, then you have a fake model).

Number 501, red cab/chassis, fawn wagon, fawn flash to side of cab, red coloured wheels. No tank slots. Small unpainted tow hook. Brown card box.

Number 501, red cab/chassis, fawn wagon, silver flash to side of cab, red coloured wheels. No tank slots. Small unpainted tow hook. Brown card box.

Number 501, red cab/chassis, fawn wagon, silver flash to side of cab, red coloured wheels. Tank slots. Large unpainted tow hook. Green paper style card box.

Number 501, red cab/chassis, fawn wagon, silver flash to side of cab, red coloured wheels. Tank slots. Large painted tow hook. Blue paper style card box. 1950 onwards issue.

Number 501, red cab/chassis, pale grey wagon, silver flash to side of cab, red coloured wheels. Tank slots. Large unpainted tow hook.*

(*This colour scheme uses a very pale grey wagon, but, it is NOT the same pale grey as used on the 1947 issue of a light grey wagon/black chassis. This colour was only issued in the green paper style box with a label top and on one end or, a continuous wrap around label on the lid. The green style boxes had a production run of just under two years and were made from late 1948 until mid 1950, the same is said for the Guy lorry boxes. We have seen numbers 501, 502, 503 and 504 in the green paper style boxes. These run along side the end of run brown card box and then the beginning of earlylight blue paper style boxeswith the red and white label)

Theblue paper style boxes, using either thered & whitesingle labels, or theorange & whitewrap around label, were not issued until mid to late 1949.

Number 502, denim blue cab/chassis, red flat bed, red flash on side of cab, red coloured wheels. No tank slots. Small unpainted tow hook. No chain post mount underside of flat bed. Brown card box.

Number 502, denim blue cab/chassis, red flat bed, red flash on side of cab, mid blue coloured wheels. No tank slots. Small unpainted tow hook. No chain post mount underside of flat bed. Brown card box.

Number 502, denim blue cab/chassis, red flat bed, red flash on side of cab, mid blue coloured wheels. Tank slots. Large unpainted tow hook. No chain post mount underside of flat bed. Blue paper style card box, red and white single label. 1950 issue.

Number 502, dark burnt-orange cab/chassis, mid green flat bed, mid green flash to side of cab, pale green coloured wheels. No tank slots. Small unpainted tow hook. Brown card box.

Number 502, dark burnt-orange cab/chassis, mid green flat bed, mid green flash to side of cab, mid green coloured wheels. No tank slots. Small unpainted tow hook. No chain post mount underside of flat bed. Brown card box.

Number 502, dark burnt-orange cab/chassis, mid green flat bed, mid green flash to side of cab, mid green wheels. Tank slots. large unpainted tow hook. No chain post mount underside of flat bed. Blue paper style card box. Early 1950 issue.

Number 502, dark orange cab/chassis, mid green flat bed, mid green flash to side of cab, mid green coloured wheels. Tank slots. large painted tow hook. Blue paper style card box, orange & white wrap around label. Mid 1950 onwards issue.*

(*The very last issues of this colour ran up until early 1952 and so it is possible to find a few late examples with the chain post mount underside of flat bed).

Number 503, dark brunswick green cab/chassis, mid green flat bed/tailboard, mid green flash to side of cab, mid green coloured wheels. No tank slots. Small unpainted tow hook. No chain post mount underside of flatbed. Brown card box.*

(*This colour was made for one month only. It was issued with a small unpainted tow hook, no tank slots in chassis, and no chain post mount underside of flat bed. This colour was only issued in the brown card box).

Number 503, dark brunswick green cab/chassis, mid green flat bed/tailboard, mid green flash to side of cab, pale green coloured wheels. No tank slots. Small unpainted tow hook. No chain post mount underside of flat bed. Brown card box.*

(*This colour was made for one month only. It was issued with a small unpainted tow hook, no tank slots in chassis, and no chain post mount underside of flat bed. This colour was only issued in the brown card box).

Number 503, violet blue cab/chassis, dark orange flat bed/tailboard, orange flash to side of cab, mid blue coloured wheels. Tank slots. Large unpainted tow hook. No chain post mount underside of flat bed. Blue paper style box, red & white label to the top and on one end. 1949 issue.

Number 503, violet blue cab/chassis, dark orange flat bed/tailboard, orange flash to side of cab, mid blue coloured wheels. Tank slots. Large painted tow hook. Blue paper style box, orange & white wrap around label. Late 1950 onwards issue.*

(*The very last issues of this colour ran up until early 1952 and so it is possible to find a few late examples with the chain post mount underside of flat bed).

In October 1948, the tanker model was introduced. This appeared in two main colours and the first run used thesmall tow hookand was issued in thebrown card box. Shortly afterwards, the tow hook was enlarged and was still unpainted. In late 1950, it was painted in with the chassis as it was applied to the casting before spraying. Theselarge unpainted tow hookmodels should only appear on the brown card box and green paper style box [with a possible over run into the blue paper box] and thelarge sprayed tow hookmodels should only appear on the earlylight blue paper style boxes.

Number 504, dark blue cab/chassis, mid blue tank, silver flash to the side of cab and mid blue coloured wheels. Small unpainted tow hook and was only issued on the brown card box only. This is the first issue and very few were produced with a silver flash.

Number 504, dark blue cab/chassis, mid blue tank, mid blue flash to the side of cab and mid blue coloured wheels. Small unpainted tow hook and was only issued on the brown card box.

Number 504, dark blue cab/chassis, mid blue tank, mid blue flash to side of cab, mid blue coloured wheels. Large unpainted tow hook and was issued in the brown card box and green paper style box [with a possible over run into the blue paper box]. This is an early 1950 issue.

Number 504, dark blue cab/chassis, mid blue tank, mid blue flash to side of cab, mid blue coloured wheels. Large painted tow hook and was issued in the light blue paper style box, orange & white wrap around label. This is a late 1950 onwards issue and in early 1952 the box changed fromDINKY SUPERTOYStoDINKY TOYSon the label.

Number 504, red cab/chassis, fawn tank, silver flash to side of cab and red coloured wheels. Small unpainted tow hook and was only issued in the brown card box.

Number 504, red cab/chassis, fawn tank, silver flash to side of cab and red coloured wheels. Large unpainted tow hook and was issued in the brown card box and the green paper style card box [with a possible over run into the blue paper box]. This is an early 1950 issue.

Number 504, red cab/chassis, fawn tank, silver flash to side of cab and red coloured wheels. Large painted tow hook and was only issued in the light blue paper style card box, orange & white wrap around label. This is a late 1950 onwards issue and in early 1952 the box changed fromDINKY SUPERTOYStoDINKY TOYSon the label.

In January 1952, the flat truck with chains was introduced. This model was made in two colours and for nine months only until the introduction of the second cab Foden, in which that in turn, was produced using the same two colour schemes. It is not clear how many models were produced in those nine months, but both models are equally rare. *See pictures below of the 1st & 2nd cab Foden Flat Truck with Chains.

The box is of the orange & white wrap around label, and even though it may have a picture of a first cab on the box, to be the genuine and correct first type picture box for the first type Foden chain lorry, it must NOT have anX[in purple] printed on the end of the box label. (TheXwas printed on some issues of the first type Foden boxes as these boxes continued to be used for the introduction of the [then] new second cab Fodens which were issued inside). *See pictures below.

The casting to the chassis should always have thetank slotsand alarge painted tow hook. The flat bed, based on the standard flat bed, now has casting mounts underside to allocate the chain posts, and these very first examples have what is known to bedimpledin style. *Herringbone style tyres were never used on these two models.

Number 505, maroon cab/chassis/flat bed, silver flash to the side of the cab and maroon coloured wheels. This model only ever appears in the light blue paper style, orange & white wrap around label.

Number 505, fern green cab/chassis/flat bed, pale green flash on side of cab and mid green coloured wheels.Please to note: the flash on the side of the cab should always be pale green, not mid green as used for the wheels. This model only ever appears in the light blue paper style, orange & white wrap around label. *See pictures below.

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In September1952, the Foden had a make over, the Foden cab changed in style to what is now known as the second type and the wheels changed from thehubto thesupertoywheels. The casting for the Flat bed and Flat bed/Tailboard now have the mounts underside to locate the chain posts and this casting is standard on all second cab Fodens. All 1952 issue Fodens now use ablack nut & boltonly to secure the back to the cab & chassis, thesilver nut & boltwas not introduced on the second cab Foden until 1955, and the base plate is of thescribbledtype. Please to note: Theshiny gloss blackbase plate was not introduced until 1959.

All 1952 issue Fodens use theround treadtyres [theblock treadtyres were not introduced until late 1954] and these are in either black or grey, and the grey continued to be used up until late 1956.

But, as most 1952 models used both tyre colours, there are two colour models that used just black and five colour models that used just grey.

The very first 1952 issue boxes continued to use theearlylight blue paperto cover the box and this soon changed to the laterdark blue paperto cover the box and this continued on until 1954 when the box design changed to what is now known as thestripe box.

The label is a standard orange & white wrap around in design, showing a picture of the second cab Foden and sayingDINKY TOYSon the face. This box/label was used as standard in the UK and Europe and it was also used in the US. There is however a box/label designed solely for the US market, no matter whether it has the Hudson & Dobson label or not, and this is recognised by the wordsDINKY SUPERTOYSinstead ofDINKY TOYSon the face, and both ends of the label are printed in English. These boxes/labels show the picture of the second cab Foden.

It is possible to find second cab Fodens, most commonly the tanker and the chain lorry, issued in boxes showing the first type Foden picture, but, to be the correct box for these two second cab Fodens, the box/label must sayDINKY TOYSnotDINKY SUPERTOYS. The way you can tell that the box is for the second cab is, on the end with the English wording, you will find the letter X [in purple]. This was the code, an indicator that it is the [then] new second issue Foden inside. (Please to note: The second cab Foden chain lorry is often found on a first type cab picture box, making the box, unlike the first cab Foden chain lorry itself, common in comparison).

The colour coding, to indicate the colour of the model inside, was simplified by just using an ink letter stamp, i.e. aBfor Blue, or aGfor Green and so on, and this was now purple in colour and standard on all boxes. *See pictures below for an example of this.

The second cab Fodens are more prone to be swapped about to make up so called rare colours, and as the Foden range had only so many colours produced, the following list is those assured, genuine colours.

Number 501, dark blue cab/chassis, mid blue wagon and mid blue coloured wheels. Black or grey tyres. (same colour way as the first cab Foden and the Guy lorry).

Number 501, d